I have read your article, and fit most but not all of it, including meeting Mr. Death. I am wondering when the forum, and website you have started will be up and running, because I would like to participate. I am actually the reincarnated soul of a tribal shaman, which is why I have confidence in what I am saying.
I am simply looking for someone to talk to. At the tail end of an incredibly difficult, shitty initiation. Making good progress, but struggling with forgiving myself for a self destructive incident a few years back. In fact at my last divination session with another authentic shaman, I asked the tarot cards for their parting advice and he said "It has the word forgiveness all over it." I'd be happy to give more information in confidence.
Okay, I am quite pleased at the moment. Have to share somewhere. I am restoring a shamanic tradition that has been dead since the Europeans invaded North America, and doing so without many resources or much real help. The calling for my tradition hit long before I was even of the legal age of majority (9-11), the basic structure that supports the initiation doesn't actually exist in the modern world (separation, initiation, return). Had the spirits of my tradition understood things better they simply would have waited 50 or 100 years to send me in, and I still managed to salvage the damn thing!
My initiation should have ended in October 2013, but I got screwed over by the worst authentic shaman in the history of the world. This guy spent our time bragging about how awesome he is, and screwed up the one piece of information I trusted him with. It has been an incredibly difficult time; I spent years working near minimum wage jobs while badly destabilized from the spiritual forces, saving up scratch to keep pushing forward with the initiation. And my efforts are finally yielding the ego death rebirth I have been going for. I'm still going to have a ton of work to do, but the acute crisis part of the initiation is ending I think tonight.
I'm very hesitant to post the esoteric/otherworldly stuff online, but I just need to talk. Have had an absolutely awful time for many many years and finally breaking through to the other side. Thank you.
I do not feel you are a genuine shaman by my standards. You throw around the term, authentic shaman but I doubt you can identify one.
You don't just meet death, that indicates kundalini not a shaman. The Shaman guide is a constant companion.
I do not believe in reincarnation either.
The term Shaman is not from north American native spirituality, they use other terms. Shaman is rooted in Nordic Europe.
I know that shaman is a flawed bastardized word originally from around siberia, but I am not fussed about the language. when I was a kid I had dreams telling me I was meant to be a "keeper of the spirits." I think once you are immersed in the specifics of a tradition, the word ceases to be a big deal, but if you are struggling through the initiation, the word can be useful in connecting one to people and information.
I've had two other authentic shamans identify me as one.
I do not believe the threshold guardian you mentioned shows up for kundalini awakening.
I'm still struggling through the aforementioned initiation, due to a lack of practical resources. What I am going through properly belongs in the wilderness rather than the institutions of an individualistic modern culture.
I also disagree with your article saying that all shamans come down with a life threatening disease. There is an initiatory sickness for my tradition, but it is something very different. I've also talked to a man who went down the life threatening disease path, but he noted that in his tradition the initiation can be a prolonged bout of madness or insanity as well.
You mentioned that you have ways of detecting the spooky death vibe non locally, and I am confident I give it off. If I gave you my name via p.m. would you be willing to look into it?
I think you have decided shaman means what ever you want it to mean.
My page on shaman awakening clearly states not to ask me if you are one, you don't seem to want to respect that. The reason why is just as you are, when I tell them "no" they want to argue with me about it and twist my definition to fit themselves and their story and discard what does not fit. Just as you are doing.
If you disagree with so much of what I say then why does my opinion matter to you? Does not look to me like it does. You believe what you want.
No you misunderstand. I am not asking you if I am one. I am already sure. I am trying to convince you that I am one so we can talk. Because I want someone to talk to. About what I have been going through for the last few years.
Your page certainly has some good information, but is not the final word on the subject. So far, many of the handful of people I have talked to on the subject will often overstate things specific to their tradition and their experiences as being universal. For example the threshold guardian you talk about (whom I have indeed met) only seems to show up for North American traditions. The two shamans I have met who are not doing North American traditions have not met Mr. Death.
Actually I am still hoping you finish the genuine shamans forum and page you started.
I realized throwing this word around can get you in trouble and offend people, but on the other hand if you genuinely have this calling on you the word is a starting point for connections that can be immensely valuable.
To clarify, when I say your article is not the final word on the subject, I don't mean that disrespectfully. It's a good article that said some things I needed to hear.
Truth is, there just isn't that much authentic information out there on this subject in the first place. Which is why I am eager for someone to talk to.
I basically read whatever I can come by on the subject.
Quote from: Manicman on June 08, 2015, 06:02:09 PMI am trying to convince you that I am one so we can talk.
So, basically you think I am flaky? That my integrity is malleable? By you? Trying to manipulate me just shows you have no idea, what it means to be a genuine shaman. I am not a reed in the wind that will bend to your persuasion, for your convenience. I am true to Goddess and guide, and have none before. Shaman integrity, an intense imperative to tell the truth. All genuine shamans I know, have this imperative. You think persuasion could over ride that? Seriously? Some flaky people calling themselves shamans have given you a wrong idea.
I have been through this crap too many times with wanna be shamans who want me to lie. to distort the truths I have been shown, expand my definition to include them because their ego is attached to a label. The answer is No.
What part of "no" is not clear to you? You trying to sell me on the idea that you are a genuine shaman so you can get my attention, is ridiculous.
Only genuine shamans will get access to the forum on the GenuineShamans.org page. People like you are the reason why. The definition is as exact and inflexible as the path itself. You don't like it, I don't care. It is what it is.
You got all these people claiming to be shamans around you, go talk to them. You think I have something they do not, maybe ask yourself, what that is.
You know, there are many sorts of inborn magical beings with odd powers, besides Shamans. Witches, fey, the various sorts of vampires. I can name you. Your desire for attention, your absolute self centeredness, your sense of entitlement, your disrespect of boundaries and efforts to manipulate, plus the icy place inside you where it all comes from, marks you as untrained vampire, not shaman.
There are similarities because vampires are the distant ancestors of shamans but vamps outnumber shamans about 300-1 with an insignificant mortality rate and few graduates. Perhaps you will be a rare one who unfolds the full potential but typically they do not mature past their self centeredness.
Vamps have quite different experience, boundaries and skill set. The icy place inside a vamp is more hungry, predatory vibe than the Shaman death gate. I usually see it on the left side. You have to own it, pretending it does not exist just makes you a polite predator. Find your kin among the psi vamps, learn to respect boundaries, how to heal by taking, and what to give back to keep the balance.
Quote from: Manicman on June 08, 2015, 06:02:09 PM
For example the threshold guardian you talk about (whom I have indeed met) only seems to show up for North American traditions. The two shamans I have met who are not doing North American traditions have not met Mr. Death.
You are quite wrong about that. I have mentored shamans in Nordic Europe, UK, USA, Canada and Austria, and they all have the portal guardian. Further I am not part of any native north American tradition, those hold no interest to me. I was raised Christian and my perspective is partly eastern mysticism (obviously, Kundalini) some elements of western magic, emerald tablet... and the patronage of a Mexican rain God.
Your peeps have no portal guardian then they are not shamans. Any idiot can call themselves a shaman, but that does not make them one. The point of teaching others to identify the vibe of a genuine shaman is so they can avoid the fake ones that give bad advice and will never attain the powers. The portal guardian is connected to the death gate, no guardian no gate no shaman. That's how it is.
Quote from: Manicman on June 08, 2015, 06:02:09 PM
I realized throwing this word around can get you in trouble and offend people, but on the other hand if you genuinely have this calling on you the word is a starting point for connections that can be immensely valuable.
This forum is about this Kundalini website. It is only a small part of the dozen or so websites I have, not the largest nor the busiest. I also run my Mystery school, my second life island, a handful of email discussion lists, chat events and sessions, I am currently mentoring three shamans, and managing a total of 5 forums. I have a rl retail business to attend to, books to finish writing, pages to update, podcasts to record. This forum exists because I get more email than I can handle, trying to do an end run by sending me a long pm totally misses the point.
Yes, lots of people want to talk to me, and there are not enough hours in a day for them all. Time is the one non renewable resource. You think you are entitled to my time. I do not agree. This is all you get from me.
Approximately 1/3 of genuine shamans do not survive to graduate. Those that do, literally go through hell and are left with an expanded consciousness and nearly non existent free will, and layers of constraints. Those gifted, high risk folks are my calling, I will make time for them, not for you. Google psychic vampires, find your kin. Give up trying to snack on me.
Look disagreeing with you and still wanting to talk isn't proof of entitlement issues, and it is certainly not proof of being a psychic vampire.
I believe that the Mexican tradition you write about being initiated into is a North American tradition.
The opinions I previously expressed are anecdotal. I have met three people in my current life I would describe as authentic shamans. And communicated with a few more online. In addition to that, I do have past lives in my tradition, and have some (not complete) conscious access to those memories. So far those I have communicated with who are doing North American traditions have met said threshold guardians, and the others have not. But I will state explicitly I do not consider myself anywhere close to the final word on the subject, just as I don't consider your article the final word on the subject.
I understand where your skepticism comes from, but I am confident that if you were to look into my system non locally, which you claim you can do, you will find that yes I do give off the creepy death vibe associated with the gate to the underworld. I have first hand experience with it, and while it makes perfect sense to disbelieve in the claimed experience of a stranger on the internet, that shouldn't necessarily lead to the assumption that the stranger on the internet is a psychic vampire or an entitled prick.
Honestly the fact that you would equate manipulation and an honest difference of opinion leads me to believe you are a bit self righteous and stuck up. Which was the opinion of one of the other shamans whom I talk to when I showed him bits of your website.
Of course at some point it does have to come back to first hand experience. I am confident that if you looked at my system, you would find said energetic markings. I grew up with the dreams about Mr. Death that you mentioned. And frankly I remember my past lives as a tribal shaman. And my spirits say I am one. But without some first hand experience, I understand how it would be easy to dismiss me as a stranger blowing hot air over the internet. Anyone can say anything.
I think you have an element of egotism about some of what you write (not necessarily a bad thing, I dislike ego bashers) but I think you are what you claim to be. A realized being, and an authentic shaman. Hence my desire to talk with you at greater length.
You can tell me no, but if you tell me that asking is a sign of character defect on my part, then I am going to object to that.
And I am at the tail end of the severe life threatening sickness/crisis that you write about. So don't assume I just want to feel oh so special. Like I said, it's somewhat different for my tradition, but there are many similarities, and I have met Mr. Death, and could easily have not survived the past few years.
When I was in Peru doing the bulk of my initiation, the spirits of my tradition said to me, "Nice job, we thought you were going to die."
It's just that the initiatory sickness, and the initiation are somewhat different for my tradition, but it is radical, and somewhat dangerous. Happy to say more if you admit the possibility that you might not be the final word on the subject.
Quote from: Manicman on June 10, 2015, 12:24:02 PM
Look disagreeing with you and still wanting to talk isn't proof of entitlement issues,
My private consultation rate is $200. per hour, and I am only available to my FST students after they have studied 20 weeks. I do make time for shamans I encounter, you are not one. You want my time anyway. Entitlement. You are not part of my calling. If Goddess and guide told me to mentor you, or have that talk with you, then I would, and they don't. They are perfectly fine with me repeatedly kicking you to the curb and telling you go bark up some other tree. That is what I have been doing with every response.
Is there even a clue stick big enough to get through to you? You are persistently refusing to listen to my repeated NO, and in case you had not noticed, vamp in denial, that's the modern definition of predator. Used to be the definition of salesman, either way you won't get what you want from me. Quote from: Manicman on June 10, 2015, 12:24:02 PMI believe that the Mexican tradition you write about being initiated into is a North American tradition.
There is no tradition!!! Hello! Enough with the bullshit projections, already. The guide is central and the guide may take us in ANY direction. Many years of experience mentoring many different Shamans made shared experiences more apparent, recognizable patterns and abilities appearing, phenomena observed. Not imposed by any person or cultural traditions. You just don't get it, We must become nothing. The guide guides, we follow or die. Guide would blow up anything imposed externally or culturally if it limits the inborn pattern unfolding, and does blow up anything we attach to. There is no tradition and there cannot be a tradition. Only what is inborn. Quote from: Manicman on June 10, 2015, 12:24:02 PMI understand where your skepticism comes from
Its clear you do not understand anything about me. Stop projecting this smug bullshit. It feels like a hailstorm. If you were a genuine shaman your guide would be kicking your ass for this behavior, it is more evidence you are not one. Quote from: Manicman on June 10, 2015, 12:24:02 PMbut I am confident that if you were to look into my system non locally, which you claim you can do, you will find that yes I do give off the creepy death vibe associated with the gate to the underworld.
I did! Doh! Why you keep assuming I did not look? Because I do not agree? Your so called confidence is just rudeness at this point. I know my calling and it doesn't flicker an interest in you. If you take your head out of your ass long enough to actually listen for a moment you might remember I said you have the vamp mark not the shaman mark. Quote from: Manicman on June 10, 2015, 12:24:02 PMI think you have an element of egotism about some of what you write
I am a hell on wheels bitch who does not suffer fools glady. I am responding to you out of politeness because you are posting to my forum, but its worn out. You want to talk with me, so do a lot of people. Tough luck, I have no interest in talking to you.
I really don't understand what to make of the second paragraph which says there is no tradition and whatnot, but yes as for the rest it simply comes down to a lack of common experience and radically different opinion.
My guides are quite okay with me questioning self proclaimed higher authorities whose definition of wise, proper spiritual behavior inevitably involved deferring to them.
I've met a handful of shamans with active and recognizable practices who agree with me that I am one, and I am quite confident I have integrated with aforementioned creepy death vibe having experienced it firsthand. Don't know what to make about the vamp accusations, but yes at this point, without making it personal, I frankly disagree with most of what you have written and doubt the quality of the long distance "check" you did on me. Not the first time I have taken issue with someone's claims to non local abilities either. Oh God I had the worst experience with non local divination in late 2013.
Obviously over the internet there is no way to definitively prove this either way, and it is your forum. But I am confident that I am not just a shaman, but the reincarnated soul of tribal shaman, because I remember my past lives of spiritual service.
In my P.M. to you I gave you my name and the tradition I claim to be being initiated into, and I'm wondering if that could help the "check."
But as I have said, there is really no definitive way to prove or disprove anything over the internet, and it is your forum so you get to lay claim to the position of higher authority.
I think my name will show up a few years down the line though. I have a lot I intend to do. Smiley face.
Dear Manicman,
I am one of the shamans Mystress is mentoring and I am from Europe. I have read your posts and I have checked on you:
Hey - you are lucky – you do not have the Deathgate nor the vibe. This is good news for you as a mind-set "I have a lot I intend to do." would kill you if you would be a genuine shaman.
A genuine shaman strictly follows the guide in order to be nothing, otherwise the chance to survive the training are close to nothing. I really wonder why someone wants to be a genuine shaman (I did not) – your free will and limited believes become a lethal weapon and every trace of fear turns into a deadly projectile ... until you surrender all. The reward: more service
What I have seen in you is a lot of chi power (free will based magic) – and the ability to be emphatic but your mind is very much blocked. Make the effort find yourself first – before you jump into a role. Regular grounding will help you (http://kundalini-teacher.com/meditations/grounding.php) and test your guides (http://kundalini-teacher.com/guidance.php).
We always have the choice if its heaven or hell. Just let it go and surrender (http://kundalini-teacher.com/karma/surrender.php?searchresult=1&sstring=surrender) the idea of being a shaman and see what returns and surrender that...etc.
Well, I do not question your unconsciousness might have given you the idea of a past life as shaman for a reason – maybe to post here.
Really - if you have let it go – check the answers from Mystress to your post again – she is very honest and she gave you already a lot of very valuable information about you for free. There might be no other place where you will be able to find a spiritual teacher who tells you about your true nature as vampire (btw there a quite cool and magical too ... e.g. healing).
You can just win if you just give back to God (or who you have faith in) all you have created and it will free your mind. :)
All the best for your journey
Corvus Shaman
Frankly at this point, I doubt the validity of the long distance check. Would it help if I gave you my name and tradition over p.m?
Obviously there is no way to prove it over the internet, but I am confident, and this isn't the first time I have disagreed with long distance spirit work.
Part of what I am saying is that I am aware of the fact that it is a difficult dangerous path not to be used to feed one's ego. I am in fact at the tail end of a life threatening crisis, just a somewhat different one than what she describes on her page. I'm willing to describe the details over p.m. though if you don't wish to continue that's fine. I also have met a few people I would describe as authentic shamans who agree with me in essence, one of whom did go through the life threatening illness she describes. Again I am willing to p.m. if you like.
Doesn't seem like there is much more to say. I don't mean to be unpleasant by disagreeing, but I do have the right to disagree.
People claiming to be genuine shamans tell you that you are one too so you believe them. To me they are not genuine shamans so their opinions are irrelevant.
You can start a club for people claiming to be a three headed rhinoceros too, and people in the club can validate to each other that they are all three headed rhinos but it doesn't mean a damn thing in the real world does it? Shared fantasy. Same as you and your so-called shaman friends.
I have been doing remote work and perceptions since I was a teenager. I am 51 now. I don't need a name, photo, location, anything. Someone can ask me to look at their co worker or their mom's third cousin anywhere on the planet, and Goddess knows who they are talking about, and She does not make mistakes. You prefer to doubt my ability so you can hang onto this ego idea of yourself. It is laughable.
If you were a genuine shaman the guide would be kicking your ass into next year at the idea of discarding an entire branch of psychic ability so you can coddle your ego and hold onto your illusions. So be it, lol! You handicap yourself with it, no one else. The belief will close your third eye because Free Will is Goddess law.
I will mention though, I have encountered people, wanna be shamans who tried to steal power from me out of envy and they went nuts with zen madness. Death gate energy in a non shaman makes paranoid psychosis, there is a good reason why genuine shamans are trained and shaped from infancy to learn to deal. It is part of our natural immune system for any trace of fear to become magnified, multiplied to a volume that cannot be ignored... it precedes the cold that leads to death.
Did you ever think your bad experiences maybe had nothing to do with a shaman path and everything to do with your pretentions opening doors better left closed? Rhetorical question. Fools rush in.
You're basically saying "It is what I say it is because I say it is." I hate it when people argue this way.
There is a book I read after an experience with an abusive guru which took issue with with authoritarianism, especially in the sphere of spiritual seeking.
It made an important point. It said "Confidence is not the nature of authoritarianism, unchallengeability is."
To say "I am confident in my abilities, and if you disagree with me there doesn't seem to be a point in us working together," is a very different stance than, "I am right by definition, and if you disagree it is a sign of defective character on your part."
You do somewhat cross the line into the latter.
My guides are quite okay with me questioning people claiming to all sorts of things within the spiritual realm. I have talked to them about it. And I've yet to meet anyone really spiritually accomplished who feels the need to insult people who doubt them. In my opinion the people who are really good are usually too busy actually doing their work to even talk about how good they are. I'm not doubting the possibility of remote psychic perception, but I have yet to meet someone who has gotten it right. In fairness I have seen people be incompetent in person as well. I actually think genuine high quality spirit work is just pretty rare. Yes, I continue to doubt you.
The people I have met who have recognized me as a shaman are in recognizable positions of service, and do have some abilities I have seen first hand. I believe myself to have experienced the cold creepy death gate you describe so well. And I remember my past lives of service to a tribe. Hence my confidence.
Obviously over the internet it is all anecdotal. No one can prove anything one way or another, though I have offered to give you more specifics over P.M. There doesn't seem to be much point to continuing this conversation given the lack of proof one way or another. I was simply hoping to talk about my feelings (It's been hard!) rather than engage in a pissing contest, but now that we are in a pissing contest, I intend to make a name for myself and eventually come back and loudly gloat on this forum. That is, if I am not too busy actually doing my damn job.
Laughs.
You set up the pissing contest, leaning on your network of he said and she said, and refusing to listen. I dont care what they said. You got issues with vampires? I never said it was a bad thing, I know some cool vampires. You think your character is without defect? Look at the dented ego saying it will come back to taunt me lol. Seriously? Childish.
The term Shaman came out of nordic europe, way north the people of the reindeer, the madness of the long nights and the shrooms. It is a genetic adaptation. The norse took sami wives and their sons fucked their way across europe and into asia, some say as far south in the Americas as Mexico but mostly the coastal natives were too hostile.
There are other cultures who evolved various spiritual abilities and they have their own terms, and it is respectful to call them for what they are, kahunas, medicine men etc than to try to label them all with the same brush and then try to insist you are right about it. The guide and death gate marks a genuine shaman, with the gene of the far north. You are either born with it, or not.
and yes what I have been telling you all along is I am busy and don't have time to listen to wanna be shamans who do not know how to listen, themselves. Talking @ me not to me. I am responding out of politeness only and am really past being polite at this point.
Yes, go elsewhere, what I have been saying...
I hate the game of "You're egotistical; no you're egotistical!"
We all have egos (except for Buddha I suppose), the point is to have some capacity to get beyond it, so that it does not compel you to do stupid things, such as display blatant contempt for people simply for disagreeing with you.
"I am a hell on wheels bitch who does not suffer fools glady." As though this sort of thing is a pinnacle of enlightened behavior but "There is a lot I intend to do" is a sign of arrogance.
I already mentioned that shaman is not the word for my tradition. When I was a child I had dreams telling me I was meant to be a "Keeper of the Spirits." I think it is a flawed but useful word, because it can help with connections and information during the crisis of initiation. I have the guide and death gate, could tell you about some of the forms the guide took in my dreams as a child. Though I have talked to some people I consider authentic shamans who do not.
I also disagree with your article saying that the "shaman sickness" always takes the form of a life threatening physical illness. I have met a man who did indeed go down that route who notes that in his tradition there are other "roads" for the potential shaman to go down. In my tradition there is a shaman sickness, but it is entirely different, though it is still a sickness that forces one to become a shaman.
Your student says: "This is good news for you as a mind-set "I have a lot I intend to do." would kill you if you would be a genuine shaman."
This is melodramatic nonsense. It is true that the path has dangers, and initiation can be fatal, but a mindset is not going to kill you.
Actually a lot of your descriptions of what it is to be an authentic shaman have elements of accuracy but are also quite melodramatic, which was the opinion another shaman I talked to had of you. And by saying this, yes I am implying I trust my sources more than yours. At some point it does have to come back to first hand experience, and I have met people who have greater credentials than New Age Guru, which doesn't impress me much.
I was previously willing to give names and details of what I have been talking about, but you don't seem at all open to the idea that your decades in the New Age Scene don't qualify you as the final word on the subject. I am quite willing to discontinue this conversation, but someone had to point out the fact that the information you have put up is not totally true, and you are not the final word on this subject.
I could say a bunch of mean things here, but it seems more appropriate to mention this for both of our consideration:
link (https://www.google.com/search?q=people+are+not+mirrors&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&imgil=Mu2IpNzegafmMM%253A%253BRNDmN1cVt7tDSM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fboardofwisdom.com%25252Ftogo%25252FQuotes%25252FShowQuote%25253Fmsgid%2525253D429296&source=iu&pf=m&fir=Mu2IpNzegafmMM%253A%252CRNDmN1cVt7tDSM%252C_&biw=1024&bih=509&usg=__FPWtiy2TAgwQt4WsyWV0M7rJ-Co%3D&ved=0CC8Qyjc&ei=yq-TVcKuC822yASMw4zYAQ#imgrc=Mu2IpNzegafmMM%3A&usg=__FPWtiy2TAgwQt4WsyWV0M7rJ-Co%3D)
Sorry about how bulky the link is, but it's very true. What you don't seem to realize, what I have run into before in online conversations, is that as much as I am an internet stranger of questionable credibility to you, you are an internet stranger of questionable credibility to me. I offered to private message you the recognizable) names of some of those I worked with, and many other relevant details, which was a stab at making this more concrete. You aren't interested, fine. We're just going around in circles, because as I keep mentioning, there is no way to prove anything without first hand experience. I trust my sources more than you, and frankly I remember my past lives as a tribal shaman. I do believe you to be an authentic shaman, but don't think that you are necessarily a highly accomplished one, and "New Age Guru" doesn't mean anything to me.
And of course, you think I am full of shit, and a psychic vampire. Fine. How can I disprove this over the internet? My spirits have told me to not continue talking with you, so therefore this will be my last comment.
Feel some folks wondering why I refused to deal with this guy. It is because the health of my liver matters more to me than dealing with idiots.
Empathic healing relies on receptivity. White magic is defined by consensuality. I am very empathic so I tend to take on stuff from people I work with. If someone is resistant, then there is no consensuality and the white magic turns black, toxic and physically attacks the organs of cleansing, kidneys, liver. Liver disease is rampant among some types of healing professions such as massage therapists, gurus, chiropractors, any activity that releases tension/karma stuff from the body.
I once had a great chiropractor. I was concerned about the stuff he was taking on, gave him a little demo of removing it and asked to take him to lunch to train him how to clean his energy. He declined. A year later he was in hospital getting surgery for liver damage and last I heard he is a real estate agent now.
If I damage my health tending to one arrogant ass who wants to argue, then I would not be available to the sincere seekers who are receptive. That is not good for anyone.
I did not attain by being willing to compromise the spiritual truths Goddess has given me to coddle some arrogant ego. I am not here to coddle egos or validate BS. My spiritual power is connected to my integrity of thought, word and deed. As a Shaman it is taboo for me to lie so I could not validate BS even if I wanted to.
As it happens, I have a calling to train vampires that is connected to my calling to mentor shamans but he was entirely unreceptive to that idea too! At least he finally took my repeated advice to go bark up some other tree... even if he did think it was his own idea.
Actually I stopped checking cause it was an old thread.
I happened to re-check to see if people had posted other interesting things on the forum.
I will restate: Your argument basically goes "It is what I say it is because I say it is."
I'm not obligated to defer to you just because it is your internet forum. New Age Guru and the self proclaimed title "Mystress" also don't mean anything to me.
I actually do think you are authentic shaman. There is real information in some of your writings. I don't assume you are a good one. There is also a lot of haughtiness and melodrama.
For example the assertions that shamans drop dead due to the attitude of "There is a lot I intend to do." What?
Or the assertion that you will suffer from health problems due to unpleasant internet arguments. These are both utterly ridiculous, and just a way of trying to objectify your own haughtiness as indisputable spiritual truths. Which is actually the impression of another shaman I shared your writings with. The subtext is pretty clear.
When I first posted, I was basically looking to vent and maybe receive some sympathy. I am 100 percent confident of the reality of my experiences, and will not back down just because a self appointed authority calls me a psychic vampire on the internet.
I am also aware of the fact that people who are 100 percent confident are often wrong, and others aren't obligated to defer to them. See? It goes both ways.
Ultimately expertise is based on shared experience and "What can you show for it?". I had hoped to give you more specific information in P.M. You weren't up for it. Fine.
But cut the bullshit Angie. You need to take some courses in logic, rhetoric, and discourse before expecting other people to believe that you're a personal embodiment of the will of goddess. Disagreeing with your "expert" opinion isn't proof of a character defect on my part, because your "expert" opinion isn't objective reality.
This sort of authoritarianism is why sane people dislike gurus. I've been doing this longer than you. I've met people who have been doing this longer than you who agree with me, at least in generalities. Coming back a year later and saying "I win! Haha!" doesn't actually prove anything.
If you don't want me to continue rebutting your nonsense, you better ban me from your forum.
Because spiritual initiations aside, I seem to be the one who actually understands logic and intellectual rigor.
:P
Another interesting thought. Angie said to open her most recent post:
"Feel some folks wondering why I refused to deal with this guy."
Okay. She is claiming she has enough psychic receptivity or intuition to "feel" that other people wanted her to give closure on this year old thread.
Can any of those people on this forum step forward to validate what she said? I mean if she is that good, other people should be able to corroborate it right? Who was actually thinking, "Please Mystress, address why you are no longer commenting on this argument."?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Cause the other interpretation is that she, yet again, used her claims to spiritual powers and authority as an excuse to publicly proclaim her own importance and infallability. That she wanted an excuse to go back and say "Look at this idiot. I win, I win!" a full YEAR after the argument was over.
Maybe Angie is just insecure.
Hello,
There is lots of people here that can see in split second what they need to see.
I see a young man with unconscious part screaming for help and his conscious part spewing nonsense here and in life.
But really purely the words you wrote here it's sufficient. Help can not be given to a resisting person even if need is dire and solution simple. And showing a disrespect to a teacher gets you just shit points.
Duu
Please use proper grammar before claiming superior insight and personal wisdom. Also, go back over what I said. Maybe it seems like nonsense to someone as incoherent as you, but if I bring in someone from outside this subculture, who doesn't accept the deeper wisdom of self styled internet gurus, I think they are likely to agree that I have a point here.
Once again, there is no actual rebuttal. Just "He disagreed! What a flawed, arrogant person!"
Ugh. I probably shouldn't have been looking for a serious conversation on an internet forum. But in fairness to me, I was quite insane when I posted that, due to aformentioned shamanic initiation. It's still going on, but I have nearly closed the book on the dangerous part.
Once again, I DO NOT ACCEPT THAT MYSTRESS HAS GENUINE WISDOM OR SUBSTANTIAL SPIRITUAL POWERS. I NEVER WANTED TO BE HER STUDENT. ME DISAGREEING WITH HER DOESN'T INDICATE ARROGANCE ON MY PART BECAUSE I DO NOT EXIST RELATIVE TO HER. HAVING SEVERAL ONLINE SITES IS NOT A CLAIM TO AUTHORITY. PLEASE REFLECT ON THIS BEFORE TRYING TO DISPARAGE ME WITH SELF RIGHTEOUS NONSENSE.
Just for good measure:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ancient_wisdom
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_self-authority
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Loaded_language
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
People should really try to understand this sort of basic stuff before claiming spiritual enlightenment.
Hello
You wished some confirmation in regards of others who might be wondering at the posts. And if someone is able to confirm the given diagnosis. So you got it.
I think that Im due for thankfulness and aprectiation of my time. However the word always manages to suprise me.
I agree that in normal coversation saying that "I see that you spew nonsence" can be taken as a soft insult. However if a local shrink gives you an assesment "I see that you are troubled by delusions and obsesions and then you express it outward and act on it" that is an diagnosis and not an insult. And if you read my whole sentence, then it is obvious that I ment it as diagnosis, albight a bit condensed one and follwing the tone you set up in previous posts. And you asked for it. I was thinking that writing it in more details is perhaps not wanted, but wanted to write you at least something usefull. Since you asked.
I think some apologies are in order from your side as you obviously misread.
So you are not realy up to discussing the situation in either shamanic, spiritual way or even in philosophical way. Nice that you gave all the links of guidelies for philosophical discussion. Realise please that you broke them all.
Love
Duu
I did not ask for confirmation, nor a diagnosis. You're not a local shrink! You're an internet stranger who can't even write well. Point out where I asked for confirmation or diagnosis...
I also do not owe you thanks or an apology.
Please refer to the links I posted from the site rationalwiki.org. It addresses this well.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
You people keep doing this over and over and over again. I'm sure any moment now Angie is going to come along and say something else stupid, unfounded, and self righteous, albeit with better spelling and grammar. She's not my teacher, nor do I consider her a legitimate authority. I owe her nothing.
I'm also still wondering if anyone can confirm what she said about ""Feel some folks wondering why I refused to deal with this guy."
Seriously. Fortunately for me, this is something provable or disprovable. Can any of her students of people on this forum come forward and say they were indeed wondering that a year after the last post? Or is it possible she is just a petty idiot who saw an opportunity to validate herself and cast herself as an authority without actually doing anything.
Similar question for you Duu: Do you have anything to show for this self proclaimed expertise?
Ugh. I wish I hadn't gotten suckered back into this conversation. How aggravating. But yeah I saw someone saying shitty things about me and wanted to respond.
There's no substance on your part. I'm not even sure you people understand the logical fallacies I am referencing. You don't even seem to be smart, let alone highly developed spiritual people.
Oh I just got it. When Duu said, "You wished some confirmation in regards of others who might be wondering at the posts." he was referring to my questioning Angie's comment that she felt some folks wondering...
First of all, I don't believe you. Seems like just an excuse to take cheap shots. As though she was psychically linked to your bemusement at a post on the internet, which occurred before she restarted the conversation, not after. If she had that level of psychic abilities, she'd also have better uses for her time than getting self righteous and haughty towards a complete stranger. I get that being contradicted makes her feel small inside, but it's not a commentary on my character.
Also, Angie said "folks." That's plural. Meaning other people still have to come forward to corroborate this nonsensical statement.
Angie: If you want me to stop pointing out the fact that you're an idiot, you should ban me and have done with it. The spirits said that you want people to respect you, and currently hate me because apparently you aren't used to dealing with intelligent people who can poke holes in your image. So go ahead and ban me. There's your chance to "win" the argument.
Hello,
Well every post you write it's just a further confirmation that Mystress assessment was correct. I think you really don't realise where you are and what you are doing.
You are as far from shaman as one can be.
Proof is right here. Its about who you are and not what fantasy you care to inflate.
Imagine that you go to meet a shaman in jungle. Then you meet a female shaman in front of her small hut, she says to you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. Then you start throwing tantrums and insulting the shaman out loud in her village in front of her people throwing gunky junk all around and even insulting the command of English of her assistant. Wtf? You should be happy that he knows it even a bit and you are not left to decipher a language of which you are clueless that it even exists.
I mean is it not crystal clear that this behaviour is tastless, shockingly abusive and utterly unacceptable?
Yes you asked for a diagnosis already by the the sentce when you said "genuine shaman". And I follow the thread from the time you wrote first post. I was thinking my view of the situation was clear before Mystress posted the new ppost. Little did I know that I was wrong. As now with renewed posts I got the first row to apreciate some energy abuse and spewed nonsence. And from the first row its diferent view and different understanding.
I do think that maybe Mystress wrote the renewed replay because of me. As much of the thread now seems like a past comming to haunt me. Perhaps it is to realy get a feel for how the people oposite of the guy lost in deep shit can feel. And how tough and painfull is their situation when all is obvious yet so little can be done. Yes, I was energy abusive at certain times in my past, but was it as bad as what was presented here? Its realy embarasses me to think about it. It is relatively easy to handle the recieving energy abuse, but its bothering. So I know that this way its the crystal clear way to make this point come home. As now I know the energy discipline and energy ethics is a pillar of ones life. Not an luxury or optional or something created on base of human created ideas of morality.
Love
Duu
I really regret getting pulled back into this.
You are doing this over and over again: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
I'm sure that when mystress maniac comes back, she is going to continue arguing by assertion. No proof to back up anything she says; just "I am automatically right because it is my internet forum, therefore you are a huge jerk."
Disagreeing with you and mystress doesn't prove anything about my character or lack of spiritual credentials.
Neither does it constitute a "tantrum," though yes I got flabbergasted and typed in capslock for a bit.
You're grammar and whatnot was bad enough that I had to go back over it to see what you meant. Yes, it counts.
I've met authentic shamans in person who essentially agreed with me, though we had disagreements on specifics. I offered to share their names with Angie over P.M. People whom you could look up right now and they are in a recognizable position of service. Though we are not formally associated.
They also didn't just "tell me what I wanted to hear." Actually they told me I was in for quite a bumpy ride.
I absolutely did not ask for a diagnosis when I said genuine shaman. It was a statement not a question. I was looking for a bit of supportive talk, rather than a diagnosis.
I am well aware that nobody on the internet is obligated to believe me. The best I could have done was give more specifics. But you and Angie don't seem to recognize that it goes both ways. That I am not obligated to believe you either.
I do not concede the point that you two have any legitimate position of authority. New Age Guru and owner of an internet forum don't mean anything.
I don't concede the point that it is energy abusive to continue disagreeing, albeit in rude language. This is absolutely ridiculous. Angie saying that I am causing her health problems. Or that having the wrong attitude will cause you to simply drop dead. I can see the http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning and http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_self-authority
over and over here.
Answer me this: Do you even know what a logical fallacy is?
I also am not willing to concede the point that you two are even highly developed people in the conventional sense. I have met a few, and they don't behave like this.
Finally, Angie said folks when she self importantly renewed this nonsense a full year after the fact. Folks being plural.
Would anyone else like to come forward and "prove" her claim that I am causing her health problems?
You two argue like a pundit on Fox News. Load the language, try to shame people, bullshit bullshit bullshit.
I've met this sort of nonsense in the spiritual scene. People who have done my divination and told me that I'm really arrogant for disagreeing with it. Even if it happens to contradict other divination I have done with other people. Saying that my disagreement means I am just asking to hear what I want to, rather than surrendering to their deeper wisdom. Not that I have the right to test the information they are giving me against my own experiences.
I realize confirmation bias is an issue, but I will restate: It goes both ways.
Also, if you are about to imply that what I just mentioned is further proof of my arrogance, shut the hell up. Like I said, I have gotten opinions that contradicted other opinions I have gotten. Also, the amount of people claiming spiritual authority who actually have it genuinely is a small minority. It's that simple.
Show me the proof of Mystress' powers. Or ban me from the forum and claim victory.
I can't believe I didn't think of this before:
In addition to the other test I mentioned, here is something provable or disprovable.
If you two are psychic enough to sense whether or not I am a shaman/psychic vampire/energetic abuser, you should be able to know my name.
Angie or Duu, post my name online here. Or if you care about my privacy, I will accept my initials.
This isn't something you can get my chance, and you can't just thump your chest and say I already know it and you are just in denial of my deeper wisdom. This is something you have to demonstrate.
What is my name?
Get it right and I will catch a plane to Canada, kiss Mystress' feet, and apologize for my arrogance. Get it wrong and you're full of shit.
You won.
You are free to go now.
Love
Duu
Don't give me that condescending nonsense. Just as I am breaking through the circular reasoning and calling you out, you give a false surrender with a subtle proclamation of superiority. "I am so wise and spiritual, I can profess love for this foolish egotistical person."
You're only backing out because I am calling you out.
What's my name?
This goes for Angie also. If she is psychic enough that my posts can give her health problems a year after the end of the conversation, she can figure out what my name is.
This is an easy chance for you two to prove that you are what you say to everyone on this board.
I think I got it now.
When you came here you said you wanted to ,,talk".
You never said you wanted to ,,listen"! So that is oversight on my part. Because then I overstepped!
Obvious now, why to listen when you ,,know" how the world is, "who you are" and what "your mission is".
Sometimes you know, there come some guys who knock on your door in fine ironed clothes, with a nice smiles. You maybe heard of them, spreading the word. And they just knock... you open... they say: We would like to talk about...... Is it not a miracle by itself and joyful proposition for any spiritual person? Right?
Well ehm.. no, they dont want to talk, they can not truly talk, because they can not truly listen.
Why listen when you already know! That would be a waste of time, would it be, right?
As they already ,,know" then naturally you are the one who doesn't yet "know". Have you heard the good news yet? Oh, thank you, give me the good news right away! Well first the not so good news, you are a slave and must obey. But here is a good news, if you obey well you will not tortured for ever and ever. Yes, I would absolutely like to talk and I would absolutely like to disagree. Well at first, where the hell is the "good" news? And what so new about this proposition anyway?
You might say what right I have to disagree? I mean how unkind is that. They did not asked me for my opinion. Or to crash their story that makes them feel good and safe and have purpose in life. Crash their simple truths that make them finaly understand what is going on here. Right?
But if they insist, then the can get it and usually they just jump on that, defending whatever is their belief of the moment. And it just spins me off so much that I forget to tell them that I actually like Christianity and that they do a good work with homeless and drug addicts. And if they just change the doctrine a little bit to allow use of condoms in Africa, as it kills millions, or blood transfusions, I would be overjoyed. Perhaps there is softer way to go. But perhaps just the closing the of door is the softest thing they can get at my doorstep. With a soft, if you are unable to listen dont ask to talk.
At some occasions I was young and opened doors and said few words to such guys, hopeful that we might talk and results were predictable. So yes I was able to predict the future, I got some nagging that this thing is not going to go down well and I was right. So I accept no challenge to my psychic powers. They are proven. So next time somebody like that knocks, I seem getting premonitions. And feel that just closing the door back seems the very best solution after all. That it is in a way much more kind to them. And sorry no, I dont need to know their names in order to intuit what is going on.
It is quite possible that intuition improves by time partly because sometimes it seems as some human patterns are like a replay of an old movie on and on. You see some new guy knocking, its first time for him, but not for you. So on your bad day, you just want to tell him "cut that shit" right as you open the door. So no wonder that he might be so impressed by your divination skills that he thinks that you are a diviner worthy of Randys one milion bucks or on other hand perhaps so impressed that he thinks you are the biggest asshole ever. Be that as it may.
To know things that are not yet so clear to people in front of you. That is part of life with psychics powers, its tough life and it is in a way sad. Its my ethics not to tell when not asked, no reason to. For me personally the trouble comes when I see a person of the similar category who is suffering lots because of some beliefs he holds. I feel some need if he came, to tell him at least something. Not that Im too holy or anything like that. Just a guy who saw these things many times before. Hoping that some part of of the other person will listen and now or later something can shift. Sometimes that works. Mostly not. That is ok. After all pain is the best teacher, one that never gives up on a student.
So If I misread the situation, then Im in error and I dont want to disturb the lesson. As I butt in by accident it seems. Sincerely, I give up.
Love
Duu
The grammar is so bad that I genuinely can't make much of that.
It seems like more of the same. "You are arrogant for disagreeing even though I haven't proved my own ability." I'm going to phrase it in "spiritual" terms to sidestep my own complete lack of substance.
Please don't end it with "love" after insulting me. I can read the subtext. "I'm a wise spiritual person who's capable of being nice to this arrogant person." Condescension masquerading as compassion.
Actually even if you had given me something viable, I still wouldn't want you to end it with the word "love." Loving strangers on the internet is just bizarre.
I never asked to talk or listen to you in the first place. I asked to talk to Angie because I hoped I would get something substantial rather than haughtiness, contempt, and unfounded proclamations of spiritual superiority. I was also just in great need at the time, vulnerable and all that.
Yes talking also means listening, but you are loading the term "listening." Listening isn't the same thing as turning off one's critical faculties and accepting whatever the other person says. I've run into this bullshit dynamic again and again and again.
http://www.earthtodana.com/luzia/
This delusional narcissist told me I was immature and egotistical and unspiritual because I didn't let her brainwash me. She "knew" that God had sent me to her for her deeper wisdom, and never actually asked me whether I consented to being her student.
I've met other incompetents and even people with genuine substance and skill who still fall into this bullshit dynamic. Surrender to them or I am bad and egotistical. Yes spiritual development does involve an element of surrender to the teacher, but the student teacher relationship is something that is built up with great care over time. Not when you initially meet the person. If I am working with the Dalai Lama I am still not obligated to defer to him, unless I have consented to be his student. Never mind a pretentious amateur like Mystress Angelique Serpent.
You two have asserted again and again that you are psychic enough to detect my unworthiness and that my character flaws are giving you health problems. So prove it. What's my name? What is any specific information about me and my life? You should be able to come through on this if you are not full of shit.
So are you telling me that you know any one person who can tell you your name in that way?
Are you seriously telling me that this is the time honored way to know if somebody has genuine advice for you?
Are you seriously telling me that this is the shamanic way? As you professed yourself a shaman.
Is this is the only way you can know? No shaman skills, no psychic skills plus being overly young and rude. How tough position.
Here is no free lunch. Keep that in mind.
Get that energy vamping habit under control. You got yourself in enough mess as is.
Chill
Duu
Are you being purposely dense?
I'm saying that if you and absent Angie are psychic enough to say that I am an energy vamp abuser whatever who is causing you health problems, you should also be able to give specific details to validate it. My name would be one easy detail.
As of now, I do not claim to have any particular powers, because I am still struggling through my protracted initiation. Though I think that changes extremely soon.
That said, the spirits have told me various things about people and subjects of interest. They said Mystress Angelique is an amateur who wants people to respect her, but also shows some genuine promise.
But I'm not the one claiming the authority over others. That is you and her. I never even asked to speak to you, and I ended the discussion with her a year ago. She restarted it by trying to take a cheap shot, and I unfortunately got drawn back in.
You never give substantial replies to the things I'm saying, and your grammar is a mess. I'm not even sure you understand what I am saying in these posts.
You are mixing in fantasy with reality.
I can say plainly that intuitive perception is real. However the telling you your name is not.
Its more on the ,,maybe" side of things, appearing maybe here and there. And as such it belongs to the mythological and motivational side of spiritual training's.
Now just purely the thinking that mythology is to be taken literally and try then to measure others against it, says that you are not interested to separate the useful from the not useful.
So what exactly are you doing in life? That is a basic element of sanity.
I always automatically accepted that people that come here can feel what is right. That they are not completely blind, that they did some work already, so that is why I just could not get myself to believe that you are really blind. But I realized it now.
Duu
So you "intuit" that you're right, but you can't "intuit" any specific details which are verifiable?
Ugh.
What I am doing in life is, I think and pray, finishing my initiation tonight, despite many many setbacks. Recovering tomorrow. Heading home Wednesday. Interviewing for a job Thursday. And then slowly trying to rebuild from what has been an immensely painful and thoroughly nonfictional shamanic initiation.
Once again, disagreeing with you, disagreeing with mystress, does not prove my blindness or egotism or unspiritualness or whatever. It just means I disagree with you. That's all.
In all seriousness, I didn't go the life threatening disease route that the author describes on this site, but I just went through something brutal and life threatening and I just wanted to fucking talk about it with someone who would be a bit sympathetic, rather than haughtily laugh at my foolishness and all that jazz.
I'll also note that I met a man who did indeed go down that route who essentially agreed with me about what was happening.
I don't feel the need to have anyone validate the reality of my initiation because frankly this is not my first or my second time doing it. It is my first time doing it in the modern world, and boy did it suck. Like being trapped in a nightmare. I am closing the book on it tonight and then trying to rebuild my life and have normal relationships with my friends and family again. It's been sheer hell that I've undertaken for a good reason (world eco crisis) and I don't appreciate complete strangers presumptuously throwing it in my face because they "know" my deeper character due to the energetic underpinning of my internet forum posts.
Ugh.
It's ending tonight. Finally.
Thanks for all your help Duu.
Good to hear that your process has ended. That was all I ever wished, when I offered some advice. That your process would end soon, sooner then in time as I intuitively seen it and that you regain your balance.
Duu