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[Manicman]

Just for good measure:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ancient_wisdom
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_self-authority
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Loaded_language
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
People should really try to understand this sort of basic stuff before claiming spiritual enlightenment.

[Duu]

Hello
You wished some confirmation in regards of others who might be wondering at the posts. And if someone is able to confirm the given diagnosis. So you got it.
I think that Im due for thankfulness and aprectiation of my time. However the word always manages to suprise me. 
I agree that in normal coversation saying that "I see that you spew nonsence" can be taken as a soft insult. However if a local shrink gives you an assesment "I see that you are troubled by delusions and obsesions and then you express it outward and act on it" that is an diagnosis and not an insult.  And if you read my whole sentence, then it is obvious that I ment it as diagnosis, albight a bit condensed one and follwing the tone you set up in previous posts. And you asked for it. I was thinking that writing it in more details is perhaps not wanted, but wanted to write you at least something usefull. Since you asked.
I think some apologies are in order from your side as you obviously misread.
So you are not realy up to discussing the situation in either shamanic, spiritual way or even in philosophical way. Nice that you gave all the links of guidelies for philosophical discussion. Realise please that you broke them all. 

Love
Duu

[Manicman]

I did not ask for confirmation, nor a diagnosis. You're not a local shrink! You're an internet stranger who can't even write well. Point out where I asked for confirmation or diagnosis...
I also do not owe you thanks or an apology.
Please refer to the links I posted from the site rationalwiki.org. It addresses this well.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
You people keep doing this over and over and over again. I'm sure any moment now Angie is going to come along and say something else stupid, unfounded, and self righteous, albeit with better spelling and grammar. She's not my teacher, nor do I consider her a legitimate authority. I owe her nothing.
I'm also still wondering if anyone can confirm what she said about ""Feel some folks wondering why I refused to deal with this guy."
Seriously. Fortunately for me, this is something provable or disprovable. Can any of her students of people on this forum come forward and say they were indeed wondering that a year after the last post? Or is it possible she is just a petty idiot who saw an opportunity to validate herself and cast herself as an authority without actually doing anything.
Similar question for you Duu: Do you have anything to show for this self proclaimed expertise?
Ugh. I wish I hadn't gotten suckered back into this conversation. How aggravating. But yeah I saw someone saying shitty things about me and wanted to respond.
There's no substance on your part. I'm not even sure you people understand the logical fallacies I am referencing. You don't even seem to be smart, let alone highly developed spiritual people.

[Manicman]

Oh I just got it. When Duu said, "You wished some confirmation in regards of others who might be wondering at the posts." he was referring to my questioning Angie's comment that she felt some folks wondering...
First of all, I don't believe you. Seems like just an excuse to take cheap shots. As though she was psychically linked to your bemusement at a post on the internet, which occurred before she restarted the conversation, not after. If she had that level of psychic abilities, she'd also have better uses for her time than getting self righteous and haughty towards a complete stranger. I get that being contradicted makes her feel small inside, but it's not a commentary on my character.
Also, Angie said "folks." That's plural. Meaning other people still have to come forward to corroborate this nonsensical statement.
Angie: If you want me to stop pointing out the fact that you're an idiot, you should ban me and have done with it. The spirits said that you want people to respect you, and currently hate me because apparently you aren't used to dealing with intelligent people who can poke holes in your image. So go ahead and ban me. There's your chance to "win" the argument.

[Duu]

Hello,
Well every post you write it's just a further confirmation that Mystress assessment was correct. I think you really don't realise where you are and what you are doing.
You are as far from shaman as one can be.
Proof is right here. Its about who you are and not what fantasy you care to inflate.
Imagine that you go to meet a shaman in jungle. Then you meet a female shaman in front of her small hut, she says to you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. Then you start throwing tantrums and insulting the shaman out loud in her village in front of her people throwing gunky junk all around and even insulting the command of English of her assistant. Wtf? You should be happy that he knows it even a bit and you are not left to decipher a language of which you are clueless that it even exists.
I mean is it not crystal clear that this behaviour is tastless, shockingly abusive and utterly unacceptable?
Yes you asked for a diagnosis already by the the sentce when you said "genuine shaman". And I follow the thread from the time you wrote first post. I was thinking my view of the situation was clear before Mystress posted the new ppost. Little did I know that I was wrong. As now with renewed posts I got the first row to apreciate some energy abuse and spewed nonsence. And from the first row its diferent view and different understanding.
I do think that maybe Mystress wrote the renewed replay because of me. As much of the thread now seems like a past comming to haunt me. Perhaps it is to realy get a feel for how the people oposite of the guy lost in deep shit can feel. And how tough and painfull is their situation when all is obvious yet so little can be done. Yes, I was energy abusive at certain times in my past, but was it as bad as what was presented here? Its realy embarasses me to think about it. It is relatively easy to handle the recieving energy abuse, but its bothering. So I know that this way its the crystal clear way to make this point come home. As now I know the energy discipline and energy ethics is a pillar of ones life. Not an luxury or optional or something created on base of human created ideas of morality.

Love
Duu

[Manicman]

I really regret getting pulled back into this.
You are doing this over and over again: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
I'm sure that when mystress maniac comes back, she is going to continue arguing by assertion. No proof to back up anything she says; just "I am automatically right because it is my internet forum, therefore you are a huge jerk."
Disagreeing with you and mystress doesn't prove anything about my character or lack of spiritual credentials.
Neither does it constitute a "tantrum," though yes I got flabbergasted and typed in capslock for a bit.
You're grammar and whatnot was bad enough that I had to go back over it to see what you meant. Yes, it counts.
I've met authentic shamans in person who essentially agreed with me, though we had disagreements on specifics. I offered to share their names with Angie over P.M. People whom you could look up right now and they are in a recognizable position of service. Though we are not formally associated.
They also didn't just "tell me what I wanted to hear." Actually they told me I was in for quite a bumpy ride.
I absolutely did not ask for a diagnosis when I said genuine shaman. It was a statement not a question. I was looking for a bit of supportive talk, rather than a diagnosis.
I am well aware that nobody on the internet is obligated to believe me. The best I could have done was give more specifics. But you and Angie don't seem to recognize that it goes both ways. That I am not obligated to believe you either.
I do not concede the point that you two have any legitimate position of authority. New Age Guru and owner of an internet forum don't mean anything.
I don't concede the point that it is energy abusive to continue disagreeing, albeit in rude language. This is absolutely ridiculous. Angie saying that I am causing her health problems. Or that having the wrong attitude will cause you to simply drop dead. I can see the http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning and http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Appeal_to_self-authority
over and over here.
Answer me this: Do you even know what a logical fallacy is?
I also am not willing to concede the point that you two are even highly developed people in the conventional sense. I have met a few, and they don't behave like this.
Finally, Angie said folks when she  self importantly renewed this nonsense a full year after the fact. Folks being plural.
Would anyone else like to come forward and "prove" her claim that I am causing her health problems?

[Manicman]

You two argue like a pundit on Fox News. Load the language, try to shame people, bullshit bullshit bullshit.
I've met this sort of nonsense in the spiritual scene. People who have done my divination and told me that I'm really arrogant for disagreeing with it. Even if it happens to contradict other divination I have done with other people. Saying that my disagreement means I am just asking to hear what I want to, rather than surrendering to their deeper wisdom. Not that I have the right to test the information they are giving me against my own experiences.
I realize confirmation bias is an issue, but I will restate: It goes both ways.
Also, if you are about to imply that what I just mentioned is further proof of my arrogance, shut the hell up. Like I said, I have gotten opinions that contradicted other opinions I have gotten. Also, the amount of people claiming spiritual authority who actually have it genuinely is a small minority. It's that simple.
Show me the proof of Mystress' powers. Or ban me from the forum and claim victory.

[Manicman]

I can't believe I didn't think of this before:
In addition to the other test I mentioned, here is something provable or disprovable.
If you two are psychic enough to sense whether or not I am a shaman/psychic vampire/energetic abuser, you should be able to know my name.
Angie or Duu, post my name online here. Or if you care about my privacy, I will accept my initials.
This isn't something you can get my chance, and you can't just thump your chest and say I already know it and you are just in denial of my deeper wisdom. This is something you have to demonstrate.
What is my name?
Get it right and I will catch a plane to Canada, kiss Mystress' feet, and apologize for my arrogance. Get it wrong and you're full of shit.

[Duu]

You won.
You are free to go now.

Love
Duu

[Manicman]

Don't give me that condescending nonsense. Just as I am breaking through the circular reasoning and calling you out, you give a false surrender with a subtle proclamation of superiority. "I am so wise and spiritual, I can profess love for this foolish egotistical person."
You're only backing out because I am calling you out.
What's my name?
This goes for Angie also. If she is psychic enough that my posts can give her health problems a year after the end of the conversation, she can figure out what my name is.
This is an easy chance for you two to prove that you are what you say to everyone on this board.

[Duu]

I think I got it now.
When you came here you said you wanted to ,,talk".
You never said you wanted to ,,listen"! So that is oversight on my part. Because then I overstepped!
Obvious now, why to listen when you ,,know" how the world is, "who you are" and what "your mission is".
Sometimes you know, there come some guys who knock on your door in fine ironed clothes, with a nice smiles. You maybe heard of them, spreading the word. And they just knock... you open... they say: We would like to talk about......  Is it not a miracle by itself and joyful proposition for any spiritual person? Right?
Well ehm.. no,  they dont want to talk, they can not truly talk, because they can not truly listen.
Why listen when you already know! That would be a waste of time, would it be, right?
As they already ,,know" then naturally you are the one who doesn't yet "know". Have you heard the good news yet? Oh, thank you, give me the good news right away! Well first the not so good news, you are a slave and must obey. But here is a good news, if you obey well you will not tortured for ever and ever. Yes, I would absolutely like to talk and I would absolutely like to disagree. Well at first, where the hell is the "good" news? And what so new about this proposition anyway?

You might say what right I have to disagree? I mean how unkind is that. They did not asked me for my opinion. Or to crash their story that makes them feel good and safe and have purpose in life. Crash their simple truths that make them finaly understand what is going on here. Right?
But if they insist, then the can get it and usually they just jump on that, defending whatever is their belief of the moment. And it just spins me off so much that I forget to tell them that I actually like Christianity and that they do a good work with homeless and drug addicts. And if they just change the doctrine a little bit to allow use of condoms in Africa, as it kills millions, or blood transfusions, I would be overjoyed. Perhaps there is softer way to go. But perhaps just the closing the of door is the softest thing they can get at my doorstep. With a soft, if you are unable to listen dont ask to talk.
At some occasions I was young and opened doors and said few words to such guys, hopeful that we might talk and results were predictable. So yes I was able to predict the future, I got some nagging that this thing is not going to go down well and I was right. So I accept no challenge to my psychic powers. They are proven. So next time somebody like that knocks, I seem getting premonitions. And feel that just closing the door back seems the very best solution after all. That it is in a way much more kind to them. And sorry no, I dont need to know their names in order to intuit what is going on.

It is quite possible that intuition improves by time partly because sometimes it seems as some human patterns are like a replay of an old movie on and on. You see some new guy knocking, its first time for him, but not for you. So on your bad day, you just want to tell him "cut that shit" right as you open the door. So no wonder that he might be so impressed by your divination skills that he thinks that you are a diviner worthy of Randys one milion bucks or on other hand perhaps so impressed that he thinks you are the biggest asshole ever. Be that as it may.
To know things that are not yet so clear to people in front of you. That is part of life with psychics powers, its tough life and it is in a way sad. Its my ethics not to tell when not asked, no reason to. For me personally the trouble comes when I see a person of the similar category who is suffering lots because of some beliefs he holds. I feel some need if he came, to tell him at least something. Not that Im too holy or anything like that. Just a guy who saw these things many times before. Hoping that some part of of the other person will listen and now or later something can shift. Sometimes that works. Mostly not. That is ok. After all pain is the best teacher, one that never gives up on a student.
So If I misread the situation, then Im in error and I dont want to disturb the lesson. As I butt in by accident it seems. Sincerely, I give up.

Love
Duu

[Manicman]

The grammar is so bad that I genuinely can't make much of that.
It seems like more of the same. "You are arrogant for disagreeing even though I haven't proved my own ability." I'm going to phrase it in "spiritual" terms to sidestep my own complete lack of substance.
Please don't end it with "love" after insulting me. I can read the subtext. "I'm a wise spiritual person who's capable of being nice to this arrogant person." Condescension masquerading as compassion.
Actually even if you had given me something viable, I still wouldn't want you to end it with the word "love." Loving strangers on the internet is just bizarre.
I never asked to talk or listen to you in the first place. I asked to talk to Angie because I hoped I would get something substantial rather than haughtiness, contempt, and unfounded proclamations of spiritual superiority. I was also just in great need at the time, vulnerable and all that.
Yes talking also means listening, but you are loading the term "listening." Listening isn't the same thing as turning off one's critical faculties and accepting whatever the other person says. I've run into this bullshit dynamic again and again and again.
http://www.earthtodana.com/luzia/
This delusional narcissist told me I was immature and egotistical and unspiritual because I didn't let her brainwash me. She "knew" that God had sent me to her for her deeper wisdom, and never actually asked me whether I consented to being her student.
I've met other incompetents and even people with genuine substance and skill who still fall into this bullshit dynamic. Surrender to them or I am bad and egotistical. Yes spiritual development does involve an element of surrender to the teacher, but the student teacher relationship is something that is built up with great care over time. Not when you initially meet the person. If I am working with the Dalai Lama I am still not obligated to defer to him, unless I have consented to be his student. Never mind a pretentious amateur like Mystress Angelique Serpent.
You two have asserted again and again that you are psychic enough to detect my unworthiness and that my character flaws are giving you health problems. So prove it. What's my name? What is any specific information about me and my life? You should be able to come through on this if you are not full of shit.

[Duu]

So are you telling me that you know any one person who can tell you your name in that way?
Are you seriously telling me that this is the time honored way to know if somebody has genuine advice for you?
Are you seriously telling me that this is the shamanic way? As you professed yourself a shaman.
Is this is the only way you can know? No shaman skills, no psychic skills plus being overly young and rude. How tough position.
Here is no free lunch. Keep that in mind.
Get that energy vamping habit under control. You got yourself in enough mess as is.

Chill
Duu

[Manicman]

Are you being purposely dense?
I'm saying that if you and absent Angie are psychic enough to say that I am an energy vamp abuser whatever who is causing you health problems, you should also be able to give specific details to validate it. My name would be one easy detail.
As of now, I do not claim to have any particular powers, because I am still struggling through my protracted initiation. Though I think that changes extremely soon.
That said, the spirits have told me various things about people and subjects of interest. They said Mystress Angelique is an amateur who wants people to respect her, but also shows some genuine promise.
But I'm not the one claiming the authority over others. That is you and her. I never even asked to speak to you, and I ended the discussion with her a year ago. She restarted it by trying to take a cheap shot, and I unfortunately got drawn back in.
You never give substantial replies to the things I'm saying, and your grammar is a mess. I'm not even sure you understand what I am saying in these posts.

[Duu]

You are mixing in fantasy with reality.
I can say plainly that intuitive perception is real. However the telling you your name is not.
Its more on the ,,maybe" side of things, appearing maybe here and there. And as such it belongs to the mythological and motivational side of spiritual training's.
Now just purely the thinking that mythology is to be taken literally and try then to measure others against it, says that you are not interested to separate the useful from the not useful.
So what exactly are you doing in life? That is a basic element of sanity.
I always automatically accepted that people that come here can feel what is right. That they are not completely blind, that they did some work already, so that is why I just could not get myself to believe that you are really blind. But I realized it now.

Duu

[Manicman]

So you "intuit" that you're right, but you can't "intuit" any specific details which are verifiable?
Ugh.
What I am doing in life is, I think and pray, finishing my initiation tonight, despite many many setbacks. Recovering tomorrow. Heading home Wednesday. Interviewing for a job Thursday. And then slowly trying to rebuild from what has been an immensely painful and thoroughly nonfictional shamanic initiation.
Once again, disagreeing with you, disagreeing with mystress, does not prove my blindness or egotism or unspiritualness or whatever. It just means I disagree with you. That's all.

[Manicman]

In all seriousness, I didn't go the life threatening disease route that the author describes on this site, but I just went through something brutal and life threatening and I just wanted to fucking talk about it with someone who would be a bit sympathetic, rather than haughtily laugh at my foolishness and all that jazz.
I'll also note that I met a man who did indeed go down that route who essentially agreed with me about what was happening.
I don't feel the need to have anyone validate the reality of my initiation because frankly this is not my first or my second time doing it. It is my first time doing it in the modern world, and boy did it suck. Like being trapped in a nightmare. I am closing the book on it tonight and then trying to rebuild my life and have normal relationships with my friends and family again. It's been sheer hell that I've undertaken for a good reason (world eco crisis) and I don't appreciate complete strangers presumptuously throwing it in my face because they "know" my deeper character due to the energetic underpinning of my internet forum posts.
Ugh.

[Manicman]

It's ending tonight. Finally.
Thanks for all your help Duu.

[Duu]

Good to hear that your process has ended. That was all I ever wished, when I offered some advice. That your process would end soon, sooner then in time as I intuitively seen it and that you regain your balance.

Duu